Revealing the most valuable person to Ohio State football’s 2024 national title hopes: Buckeye Talk podcast (2024)

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- It’s the five most valuable Ohio State Buckeyes for the 2024 football season on this Thursday Buckeye Talk.

The crew runs through the top five, which includes both coaches and players and hits both offense and defense. They covered the Buckeyes ranked 10 through six on Monday.

Players and coaches are combined in this ranking, and it’s not a best-of list. It’s value. It’s importance.

Stephen, Nathan, Andrew and the Ohio State text subscribers each ranked their top 20 Buckeyes, and the lists were then combined to rank this top 10.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:08.332)

Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means. That’s Nathan Baron. That’s Andrew Gillis. And this is day two of ranking the most valuable players, most valuable coaches, most valuable people associated inside the Ohio State football program in twenty twenty four as the Buckeyes try to achieve winning its first national title since twenty fourteen a decade, a decade since they’ve won a national title. Nathan, a decade since they’ve won one and the only people who know what that feels like in the building. Larry Johnson, Mark Pantoni.

Mickey Moradi, only one of those three guys got an entire vote in this conversation. Mick Moradi got one vote. He got a first place vote. That’s it. The other two guys didn’t even get a single vote in this conversation, which is fine. So far we’ve worked through six through 10 Jack Sawyer, Ameka Abouka, JT Twiemoloao, Jeremiah Smith. And then we had a tie at number 10, Josh Fryer and Devin Brown. So six guys through five spots there. No ties here. Five guys, flat out, five guys just straight up.

Nathan, without giving away your list because we’re still trying to move through this here.

Stephen Means (01:15.596)

What, when you were trying to decide coaches that deserved being on this list, how much did you value the strength of their position versus just the overall unit versus their duties as a coordinator? I guess is a better way of putting this.

Yeah, I didn’t have anybody who isn’t administratively involved, for lack of a better term, in my top 10. And I only have a couple coaches in my top 10. But to me, it’s about the game day influence and the strategic influence because at the end of the day, it can be sometimes hard to quibble.

with in player development, whether that’s on the coach or on the player, the later you get in somebody’s career, the more it’s on the player to me. And for me, it was more about the roster being what it is, who are the guys who could be pushing buttons that decide whether this is a national championship team or not.

Stephen Means (02:28.652)

The reason I asked you that weird question, I know that was a weird way to voice that question, is because you do have two coaches on your list. You don’t have both coordinators on your list. One of the coordinators you don’t have is Jim Knowles on your list at all. He is number five on our overall consensus. He did get one first place votes. The Techsters had him third. I had him second. Andrew, you had Jim Knowles 15th on your list. So let’s...

15.

Stephen Means (02:55.948)

Andrew, you had him 15, so you didn’t think he needed to be considered. Nathan, you didn’t have him at all on your list. So, Andrew, I guess we’ll start with you. You wanted him on your list of top 20 guys, but you didn’t think he needed to be that high on your list. Why?

Well, um, look at Ohio State’s defense and I think you’re not really going to see many holes. You’re not really going to see many problems with that defense. I think it’s basically all, um, you know, Hey, look, look at the talent that they have and look at all of these other, you know, variations that they can do and look at how deep they are in this and that the other. So I think Jim Knowles deserved consideration on like a top 20 list because

somebody’s got to put them somewhere. You got to move them around a little bit. But I thought about this as I was mapping out the list. I originally didn’t have him on it. And I was like, well, probably have to put him on it. But I thought about like, if they could if you could just like give me like a pill that would give me the knowledge of Ohio State’s playbook and I know what the players what the plays are called.

Hey, Eagle means cover three, this, that and the other. What record is Ohio State going if I’m their defensive coordinator? Like, I was like, I feel like this could be like a self -sustaining unit. That’s what I’m saying. You win eight games. You win two thirds of your game with some dude who didn’t play college football. Like.

8 and 4.

Stephen Means (04:24.268)

Well that means you lose to any team who has a pulse on your schedule though.

Yeah, but that’s my point. They could sleepwalk through their schedule and win eight games with literally with an idiot coaching them on defense. So it’s like, you know what I like? Jim Knowles is the furthest thing from an idiot. I think he’s done a very, very good job. I just think that this defense is so good that I have questions about like the value of having that elite level defensive coordinator, because I think.

A lot of people could do that job on Ohio State staff this year, that defensive coordinator job. But I also think that you need somebody to scheme up some fun stuff. You need somebody to scheme up the double eagle stuff. You need somebody to put some kind of unique things into different positions. So he was on the list. But again, I just looked at it and I was like, this defense is so good from top to bottom that I just don’t know what.

benefit, like I just don’t know how you can put him above some of these other guys.

Nathan Jim knows is making $2 .2 million at Ohio State and Andrew basically just dumbed his job down to like, Oh, anybody who is competent can do that job. I’m not going to go that far. I think Ohio State 2018 defense would like to talk to you about having just anybody to be the defensive coordinator. Cause they basically ran back that entire personnel a year from after having the worst defense of the past 25 years and had the best defense in the past 25 years. So I’m not going to go that low, but.

Stephen Means (05:56.268)

Just the concept of what he’s talking about, Nathan, the talent around Jim Knowles might be so great that it’s not like he has to overcome anything the way he did two years ago when he first got here. Is that part of the reason why he didn’t make your list?

Yeah, it’s probably an oversight that I didn’t have him in my top 20 at all. But if I did, it would be in this sort of range that Andrew has him. It would be in that lower part of it. So he wouldn’t have made my top 10. And to me, it is two things. Number one, well, one is just the high floor of talent that they have on defense. Like it’s just, they’ve got too many.

Potential all big 10 guys to play them all right now is kind of how we look at this defense when you start talking about well Who’s gonna rotate among the linebackers and which you know? Where does how much the sunny style is gonna play like that’s such a ludicrous thing for us to be saying out loud If you had gone back a year that we would be looking ahead one year being like man They’re just so good can sunny styles get on the field very much like that’s that’s a little bit crazy and secondly

the system is now in its third year. So each year that you’ve installed a system, and it’s not so much that the system is in its third year, it’s that so many of these guys have now lived in that system for multiple years. A lot of them as guys who are starting and taking real reps, hundreds of game reps in this system. And so to me, what this defense does from a coordination standpoint,

is a little bit more baked in to these guys. They’re gonna flow in it a little bit more naturally than maybe they will on offense since it’s the first year with Chip Kelly and yes, it’s the same offense, but they’ve already, we’ve already seen indications that being filtered through Chip Kelly’s brain changes some things that are gonna be happening. So that’s why I didn’t put nulls as high as some other of the coaches that we’re gonna talk about because...

Nathan Baird (08:06.282)

I’m not trying to minimize his contribution. It’s just that of the two, he has the much easier job this season between defensive coordinator and offensive coordinator. I don’t think, how could anyone even question that? Like you have just the most talented defensive roster in the country. And I think he would be the first to admit he’s gonna have a lot of fun playing with that I think. He’s got a lot of options to deal with.

But it’s not a question of, a year ago it was like, well, are you gonna get the right guys in place to maybe cover up where this is still an issue? And now it’s more like, you don’t really have weak spots, it sure doesn’t look like. So go have fun with that. They’ve already been a defense, what this defense was, this defense was national championship caliber last year. That’s maybe the other thing that I kept coming back to. This was already a national championship caliber defense.

And yes, he was involved in that, but it’s almost like, well, okay, so you’ve already solved that. Here are the guys who have to do different or new or something things in 2024 to push it beyond that.

Stephen Means (09:22.956)

Okay, I’m gonna throw something at you guys and it’s gonna sound crazy. At least I think it is. And if it does, cool, I’m fine with that. I had him second on my list. As I mentioned, the textures had him third. I think I pushed him up so high because of the Michigan game. And we’re just not sure about what Michigan is right now. But I do know that’s a rivalry game and sometimes that can have an emotional pull on things. And I know Nathan’s already given me the look of like, where is he going with this? It’s fine.

So I was having a conversation with somebody about three weeks ago about the Ohio state Michigan game and how the last two games have played out. And one of the things he brought up to me, this person was that it feels like the last two years, Ohio state has been preparing to beat the Michigan team from the year before.

in some way, shape or form. So in 2022, they were trying to beat the 2021 team. In 2023, they were trying to beat the 2022 team. And by trying to beat the 2022 team in 2023, it meant not giving up explosives. You know, they were not as aggressive at times in an attempt to not give up explosive. But it worked.

It worked. They didn’t give up a bunch of explosive. In fact, before the Rutgers game, I don’t think they’d given up a play over 40 points until that trick play. So they had limited explosives for the most part. And then what happened was Michigan just like rent just walked it down the field and said, OK, we’re going to do what we normally do, especially in that second half and some drives where they needed to get off the field. And I’ve been thinking about that. I know this sounds crazy. I know it’s out there a little bit. And you guys are probably not going to agree with me, but fine. I’m thinking about that.

that concept of Ohio State has been preparing for the Michigan team from the year before every single time. And it’s part of the reason they’ve lost that game. And the part Jim Knowles maybe played in that, especially in last year’s game where he wasn’t as, there wasn’t the, it’s the first play of the Notre Dame game and I’m sending a cornerback blitz.

Stephen Means (11:24.844)

And so I’m wondering what the medium is between both of those situations. And I think there is value in having that finding that place and him being had his best in those moments against those teams, whether it’s Michigan, because of a psychological thing, is that still a rivalry or when they get into when they play Oregon or when they’re in a college football playoff? I think all of my value for Jim Knowles is in those games where, yes, this team is super talented. Yeah, it might be the best defense in the country, then Oregon and maybe Georgia.

But they’ve had one of the better defenses in the country the last two years. But when they got on the field with like minded teams, teams were able to exploit that. So for me, that’s what pushed the value up. Now tell me I’m crazy, Nathan.

Nathan Baird (12:13.354)

I guess I don’t know if you’re crazy. I mean, listen, last year, if you take away an interception that the offense throws and gives Michigan a touchdown, more or less, take that, take that pretend that didn’t never happened. And I’ll say just punts and everything else is the same. I’ll say wins that game 24, 23 defense. Wasn’t the reason Ohio state didn’t beat Michigan last year. Yes, they needed to get off the field faster late in the game. Um,

Mm -hmm.

Nathan Baird (12:41.386)

The reason Michigan beat Ohio State last year is because Michigan was really good and Michigan played pretty much a perfect game. I suppose I would listen to an argument that Knowles needed to conjure some way to disrupt them and whatever, but really...

I just I can’t get there as being like he’s his him Spinning something and and coming up with something Game plan wise is the flaw there? They certainly the foundation he laid and the foundation that that defense played with all season was what had them in that game there was I think a step forward from where we saw them the last two years, but I

It’s still been repeatedly, I would argue repeatedly, offense that has cost Ohio State the Michigan game in the last couple years. Even when the scores have gotten higher on the Michigan side, it’s been in second halves where the offense just disappears. And at some point you hit the breaking point. And I’m kind of comfortable, if I’m an Ohio State fan, I’m thinking, okay, if we go in to Ann Arbor and give up 23 points.

Maybe not this year, because we don’t know where Michigan is. And that’s the other part of this, is yes, they have to beat Michigan, but Michigan might be in a place by the end of this season. Because we don’t know what’s coming from the NCAA and everything else. And probably that may not happen that quickly. But you know what I’m saying? I guess I haven’t put that much into the orchestrations that someone needs to do to beat Michigan, because I just don’t know that it’s going to take much.

Man!

Nathan Baird (14:26.026)

for our state to beat Michigan this year.

Yeah, I disagree with Steven’s assessment because I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. I like the thought behind it of just they prepared to beat the team before. Like I think it’s a fun theory, but think about what we just said. They went into the game thinking we gotta stop the run and we gotta not let them throw over the top. Like that just kind of feels basic.

It just kind of feels general, right? Like we got to stop the run against a running team and we got to prevent explosive plays when they do go over the top.

That’s not that’s that’s that’s not true because if you Know what that’s not. No, that’s not what I said. That’s not what I said at all What I’m saying there is multiple ways to approach a defensive philosophy and if you are an aggressive defense who is like Jim Knowles a year before that was like Oral it was a four or five or less explosive plays and you win the game because he knew with the style of defense that he came to Ohio State with being over aggressive Sometimes you’re gonna give up an explosive play and you live with that because more times than not

Right. Of course. Oh, and I know what you’re, yeah.

Stephen Means (15:30.636)

It’s going to go your way. So that’s not what you’re you just explained Andrew. That’s not, oh, stop the run. Don’t get beat over the top. That’s almost the opposite of that is be aggressive, dictate things and live with the fact that two or three times a game, you might just give up a 35 yard play because it’s going to happen in that situation. So I don’t I don’t want it to be simplified to, oh, just do the normal thing in football because that wasn’t the philosophy Jim Knowles showed up with.

So.

Andrew (15:54.926)

Yeah, I just I don’t know. Like, I don’t know if I would boil it down to like that that one game or anything like that. And like Nathan’s right, like the defense wasn’t the reason they lost that game. I don’t I also think it’s like I think it’s too much of a simple simplification to say that, like, if they don’t throw that interception, they win the game by one point twenty four to twenty three because there’s like a bunch of butterfly effect stuff that goes on where it’s like like Michigan pulled the shoot on that last drive. They played for a field goal. Did they go for two earlier? There’s just a billion different things.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Andrew (16:24.526)

But like in in theory, right? Like, you know, you’re it’s a different game. I’ll put it like that. I don’t know if you win or lose, but it is a different game that Ohio State has a greater percentage chance of winning if they don’t throw that interception in the defense. I mean, the defense did its job that day. I think for the most part, that was the only time all year that they allowed more than 20 points. And you need your offense to rise to the occasion and they didn’t. But I, I don’t know. I just I I don’t know if I would.

put all of that importance on the, I don’t know if I would put that for Jim Knowles, like specifically that high for one game. I just, and I know it’s not just one game, but yeah, I, right.

It’s not even, yeah, I use that game to make a bigger point of what happened, the bigger games, when the talent gets equated, that’s when the coordinators and the scheme schematic becomes a little bit more important.

Mm -hmm.

Nathan Baird (17:16.074)

Do you disagree with what Ryan Day said the year before about how in championship games you expect those to be played in the 40s? And that’s exactly what happened when they went to Georgia.

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with that. I also -

Okay, then there’s no way this defense has given up 40 some points to I think anybody this season, right? So, I mean, again, you can quibble with certain things about this and say he still is the one that has to come up with the game plan that maximizes all of this, I suppose. And I think last year, Knowles would have been higher on my list than he is this year.

Fair. Fair.

Nathan Baird (17:53.642)

Now that’s, but in some ways that may be unfair because it’s like, oh, he just proved that he could do X, Y, and Z and now you’re not giving him credit for it. And I get that, I guess. I do, I think I pushed back though against the idea that they’re like defending the team from the year before. Listen, Michigan was like so good last year. They were so good. And they made no mistakes that day, like none. And they just, you just,

ran face first into a wall a little bit. Like they weren’t giving you any bend that day if you’re Ohio State. And that sucks, but that was a playoff game. And that was a game where Ohio State’s offense needed to score in the 30s or 40s to have a reasonable expectation to win probably, and couldn’t get there. Couldn’t really get that close.

Okay, let’s wrap up defense here. Our last defensive player, well, first, technically, the last one we’re going to talk about, but the first one on boards.

We both had him at three, Nathan, the Texers had him at number five. And then Andrew, you had this guy, a little bit down, you hit him at nine. I’m interested to have a conversation about that one. Caleb Downs, overall score, 11 .9, got two first place votes. Jim Knowles, by the way, won first place vote, 10 .5. So as I mentioned on the Monday pod, there was a 0 .1 differential between Jack Sawyer and who number five was. That’s the difference between Jack Sawyer and Jim Knowles, 0 .1. So.

Caleb Downs 11 .9, Nathan, you and I had him at number three. And I think it’s just, it’s funny that we both had him so high in this situation because we’ve also both said they didn’t necessarily need them to have a really good defense. It’s just, he’s the thing that he takes this from a nice luxury car to the luxury vehicle on the lot that everybody’s trying to get and only Jay Z and Beyonce can afford. And the rest of us are just hoping to be able to touch it.

Stephen Means (19:48.396)

Second team All -American as a freshman. He’s got two more years here and it’s just like, I mean, he might be the best safety in the country. So he’s number three for both of us. I think that’s, it doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.

Yeah, I mean for me it was what I was kind of saying yesterday about Jeremiah Smith that now it’s a little bit different because downs isn’t this you know, Josh Proctor is not the Marvin Anderson Jr. Safeties, obviously, but when you’ve already got what was clearly one of the best defenses in the country and the only like major losses, I mean, Mike Hall, they’ll miss Mike Hall, but they’re plenty stocked on the defensive line. But like,

you’ve got to replace two linebackers, but you’ve got like truly talented guys to potentially do that with. Like the only thing that you’re maybe answering is like, what’s going on at the back end of this defense? And he’s obviously so much more than that. So for me, it was what could, who’s the guy who could propel this from being a really good defense and maybe one of the best defenses in country to like, oh,

this might be like a historically elite defense. This might be one of those defenses that, you know, some internet site 30 years from now is putting together a list of the best college football defenses of all time. And you’ve got a strong case for this team to be very high. And I think that he is just so talented and so versatile and is going to, as good as Josh Proctor was,

This is a step up. That’s what we’re saying. Like Josh Proctor was an NFL, you know, he’s getting an NFL opportunity, was a veteran player who played very well last year. And there’s nobody who doesn’t look at this as like potentially like a massive upgrade over that. And you’re right, this defense maybe necessarily didn’t need it. It’s not so much whether the defense needs it. It’s almost whether the offense needs this. Like does this defense without Marvin Airston Jr. on offense, without knowing.

Nathan Baird (21:56.778)

how good the quarterback play is gonna be without knowing for sure what’s going on with some of the offensive line things, although there’s good indications. Like, does this defense, based on last year’s experience, need to be even better this year to like give this offense even more room for error and give them the ball back in more advantageous ways, that sort of thing. And as I’m looking at what would maybe make the difference between winning a national championship and not.

I think he qualifies because if he adds a level of security and playmaking at the back of this defense that raises it up another notch, then that’s a notch less good that the offense has to be to still win a national championship.

There’s almost an element of this. Now, the offense is not going to look this incompetent every single week. I promise you that. I bet money on that. But.

does this defense need to every week needs to be the cotton ball for the defensive side of the ball where you’re that dominant to where it’s almost like the offense wasted a dominant day by the defense except the offense doesn’t waste it this time around but it’s opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to get it right. Even the Penn State game was kind of like that. It was a little wacky at times but opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to finally get it right. Do they need the defense gave you, I don’t know.

three extra opportunities than you should have had in some of these games. The Notre Dame game can be, qualifies this as well. Does the defense need to give you six more after giving you three more last year? And does Caleb Downs allow you to do that? That’s 100 % where I’m at with this too, Nathan. Andrew, I’m not gonna say no love for Caleb Downs because he still is your number one defensive player. You just treated this like it was the NFL draft and waited a while until you decided to name a defensive player in a situation. You had him nine.

Stephen Means (23:47.564)

So you had a decent number of offensive guys, both coaches and players ahead of Caleb Downs. Why no love for Caleb?

Yeah, just Andrew, this podcast should be titled No Love for blank. I think, you know, why does Andrew hate Caleb Downs and Jeremiah Smith? No, I think I mean, Caleb Downs is like maybe the best player on this team as it is right now. I mean, Caleb Downs is awesome. And the thing that I had him at nine for, I think maybe you could make an argument for me and I would be persuaded to move him up a spot or two. But.

To me, the value for the 2024 Ohio State team comes on the offensive side of the ball. Like if you want to win a national championship, you need guys on the offensive side of the ball to step up because I think that there are safeguards and, you know, there are there are off ramps to the defense if things go wrong. And I think Caleb Downs, like again, he is my highest rated defensive player. So I do think he’s very valuable. I just think that.

where this defense is at, it merely, I don’t want to say merely takes you, but it takes you from elite to like super elite, right? Like it takes you to one of the, maybe the best defense in the country to maybe an even better version of the best defense in the country. Like if Caleb Downs wasn’t on this defense, we would still be talking about them as maybe the best defense in the country in the 2024 season, right? Like I don’t know how much of that conversation is changing and -

I think he is going to do a lot of things for you. He’s going to be able to just take one, you know, you play him in a cover to sell, he’s going to be able to take away a deep half of the field. You play him as a single high safety. You feel great about just jamming everything up at the line of scrimmage and within five to 10 yards. Like there’s just because you know, you have Caleb back there. There’s just so many things that you can do with him. There’s so many things that work with him, but I mean, this defense is going to be really good with or without him.

Andrew (25:51.022)

And I looked at some of the guys on the offensive side of the ball and I’m like, man, if this team wants to win a national championship, they need to be better in X, Y, and Z. And that’s why I had offensive guys higher. That’s why I had some offensive coaches higher because I mapped everything out and went, you know what, if this is not better, doesn’t matter if you allow 20 points a game or no more than 20 points a game for the entire year. If you’re going to play Georgia and hang 17, it doesn’t matter. You’re going to lose.

It doesn’t matter if you lose 20 to 17 or 44 to 41, you’re still gonna lose. And I think that the offense needs to be better. And that’s why I had some offensive guys ahead of me.

they lose forty four forty one the office was the problem but

But that’s what I’m saying. It’s like, you’re still gonna lose. So it’s like the offense needs to get better because the defense was already at that level last year. And like Nathan said, the offense, if you wanna win a national championship, that’s the next logical step because the defense was a national championship defense already.

So Caleb Williams, Caleb Williams, that was the number one pick in the NFL draft, not the number one pick this year. Caleb Downs is my top player. And it’s because it’s a combination, Nathan, of how you talked about Jeremiah Smith and Andrew, how you talked about some of the other players on your list in general in terms of their value. He raises the ceiling because he’s the best safety in the country, arguably. So he raises the ceiling the way that Jeremiah Smith might raise the ceiling in the wide receiver room.

Stephen Means (27:22.956)

There’s also a gap between him being on the field and him not being on the field that I don’t think is all the way there with Jeremiah Smith, because if Jeremiah Smith was not here, their starting wide receivers would be Carnell, Tay Brandon, Dennis and Emeka Buka. And that’s still one of the best wide receiver trios in the country, I think, by halfway through the year. Right. So that’s Jeremiah Smith is bonus in my mind.

Caleb Downs is both bonus and necessity because while we think Malik Hartford is on the right track, while we think Jaden Bonsu was on the right track, we don’t know.

for sure. And neither one of those guys, unlike with Brandon Dennis, where you can have the five star assumption thing in a room that’s also used to developing first round draft picks, you can’t quite do that with the safety room with all due respect to what they’re starting to build in that room in the defensive back. You can’t do that the same way. So yeah, this would be a great defense if Caleb Downs wasn’t here, but there’d be one hole we could point and start poking at real different. You know who else poked at it?

JJ McCarthy, as soon as he saw Milly Carver hop on that field, he said it. He saw that hole come on the field and he poked at it. Now, Milly Carver will be better this year, obviously, but it’s a question mark that’s not a question mark because you just filled it with arguably the best safety in the country. And when you combine that with, he potentially fills a hole and he’s a bonus.

That’s my number one player in that situation. So that’s four and five, Caleb Downs at four, Jim Knowles at five. We’re gonna take a quick break here and then we’ll get into two and three combined. Two offensive guys where I think both of these, I’m actually interested to see how you guys view these guys this season given what this roster is and what the coaching staff is as well here on Puck Eye Talk.

Stephen Means (29:11.532)

So we’re down to number three on our list of top 10 most valuable people. We talked about six through 10 on Monday. So far we’ve talked about Caleb Downs and Jim Knowles here on the Tuesday pod. Our next guy here, Andrew had him second. He got five first place votes from our Texers, but overall he was fourth from the Texers. I had him seventh and Nathan, you had this guy eighth and it’s Will Howard. And I think...

Part of the discrepancy here between where he is and where Devon Brown is is that everybody just thinks he’s going to be the starting quarterback. So I get it. You’re already kind of preparing that way. And so you want to have that gap. That’s why I had like a five person gap between those two. And so I get that 100%. Nathan, I want to start with you because you had him eighth.

If Ryan Day names him the starting quarterback on his typical timeline, you know, that third week of fall camp is Will Howard jumping up into your top four.

Oh yeah, I think whoever, if there was a starting quarterback right now, he would be number one on my list. If there was for sure a starting quarterback right now. And I have Howard ahead of Brown because I guess the fleeting indications we got, if you don’t mind, I bet you want to read into the spring game, the fact that Howard started, the fact that Howard got more reps with the true number ones than Brown did. There’s the lean, I guess, that he’ll be the starter.

Like again, like what this offense had the weapons last year, we can quibble about the offensive line at times, but I think if you were to go back and rewatch that season and high stakes coaches, I’m sure have many times that you’re going to see times where if you had just made some better plays in the passing game.

Nathan Baird (30:59.434)

this, it would have propelled this offense, regardless of what the offensive line was doing. I think that you can go back and, and, and make some definite, um, and, and yes, the way the offensive line played, especially early in the season, I think contributed to some of that. I think common court had the pass rush in his head a little bit in the second half of this season. That was certainly in the Wisconsin game when he was trying to play hurt, especially like those games. It definitely came up. But to me,

Whoever the starting quarterback is and we just, it’s once they’re named, you assume they’re going to keep the job. You assume that’s the guy. Um, cause you can’t really, you know, predict injuries. Um, that’s the decision. Like is he championship caliber or not? We don’t know right now whether any of these guys are championship caliber or not, but he immediately becomes the guy that a lot of things are, are hanging on. So valuable is a tricky word. We can define it in a lot of ways. Uh, I don’t think either of these guys.

is pound for pound the best football player on this team. There’s gonna be a lot of other candidates for that, but.

The so much is resting in their hands on every single snap that the one who is asked to finally break through all of these things, the Michigan game, break through the, you know, getting deep into playoffs, like all those things now fall on the one guy’s shoulders. No matter how much the rest of the talent is here, they still have to come through. Didn’t happen last year and that only ratchets the urgency up.

this year.

Stephen Means (32:36.94)

So Andrew, because you had these two so close, Will Howard and Devon Brown, I think Will Howard was 2A and Devon Brown was 2B. And I made them 2 and 3 when I put them down on here just for the sake of I have to do math. So, sorry.

To be fair, I did have them, yeah, there were 20 names on the list, so technically they were two, three. I just wanted to classify them two, A, two, B. I did.

That’s true. And you made it Will Howard A. So I put it first.

Stephen Means (33:03.276)

Regardless of who wins, because they’re this close.

How far does the loser drop in your top 20?

definitely outside the top 10, but still probably close because what do we know about Devin Brown? And I’m not trying to label him as injury prone, but he’s been hurt twice. And if Will Howard and Devin Brown are going to run the ball a little bit, you do have to be prepared for that possibility that, you know, we’re talking about this, we’re talking about getting through the season with, you know, maybe a 16, 17 game season. We’re talking about that with.

you know, running back and defensive end. How do you manage, you know, quarterback rotations? And, you know, do you, are you quick with the, with the hook to get offensive lineman out of the game and this and that and the other, we’re talking about all those things. It also matters for quarterback too. You know, like there’s a reason why, I mean, players are bigger, faster, stronger, but there’s a reason why in the NFL, when they play 17 games, they tell quarterbacks, get the hell out of bounds or get on the ground. Right. You know, there’s a reason why.

do that. And it’s so you could save the guy for that amount of time. And I think I would still have whatever quarterback is not the starter on this list, because clearly, Devin Brown thinks that he can win the job still. And I would probably imagine that there was a conversation had whether it’s by the coaching staff or with Devin Brown and his family or whatever that somebody would have said, like, Look, man,

Andrew (34:42.606)

Will Howard goes down, you could win the, you might lose the job and week two, Will Howard goes down, you might win it and never look back. Like you might have to play two quarterbacks this year. And I think that’s why I would have those guys kind of, I would have the guy at the top of the list, but then I would have the other guy just outside the top 10 because I think having that backup quarterback might be really important for the style of play that they are probably going to ask these quarterbacks to play.

Nathan is the loser still in your top 20? Okay.

Yeah, yeah, I think so for all those reasons that he just said and all sort of all the reasons I said when we were talking about both these guys before it’s it’s Even when somebody wins this job this almost happened last year, right? like common -cord wins the job, but then Brown doesn’t go away and We don’t know how that could have developed if Devon Brown doesn’t get hurt who’s to say so I’m talking about getting hurt in against Pint

Yep.

Nathan Baird (35:44.554)

was a pensator Purdue.

That’s Purdue.

do was no Penn State was the injury.

Yeah, so, yeah, so you know what I mean? So this may not be over just because it’s decided, if that makes any sense. Unless somebody just puts their stamp on it. But again, that’s why the quarterback goes number one on my list. If we had a, once there’s an actual starter, I think they go number one because they have to then follow through and, and,

Oh yeah, right.

Nathan Baird (36:18.794)

elevate their position beyond what it was last year more than anybody else on this team does.

I thought about that at times. The idea of what if Devon Brown doesn’t get hurt in that game? And, you know, first four games of the year, you’ve got a big opponent coming up on the road. You probably need to play it a little bit more safe. And so you go with the.

I don’t know, this is gonna sound mean, but Kyle McCord maybe was a safer option at that point. He was probably more ready to beat Notre Dame, but that doesn’t mean he was going to be more ready to beat Michigan at the end of the year. And maybe it’s far -fetched, but I just wonder that Nathan, because they, even after they had decided Kyle McCord was a starter, they had started working Devin Brown in with a role. And could that have expanded throughout the second half of the season, where maybe Ryan Day looks up one day and goes, huh.

I think this guy might be better now, but we’ll never know, because Devin Brown got hurt, and so it kind of is what it is.

You know, at the very least, when common courts like hobbling around against Wisconsin and Devon Brown’s just like not an option in that game, then if he’s fully healthy, do they make that move? And then you get to see something from them around them. Brown gets to sew something and then who knows what changes after that? Well, we’ll never know. I don’t know that it’s like Buckeye fly effect worthy where you say, Oh, they just made this switch. I mean, obviously if Devon Brown goes on and has some kind of awesome year this year, it becomes.

Stephen Means (37:23.82)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nathan Baird (37:48.106)

there’ll be Buckeye Fly Effect conversations worth having about that sometime in the future. But as of right now, it’s just kind of like, it would just tell us more about Devin Brown if he hadn’t gotten hurt. Because I think there would have been situations like that where he would have been able to play. There would have been other situations where he would have been able to play and we would have seen a little bit more out of him before the Cotton Bowl happens and he just gets hurt again.

I think I’ve been thinking about some of those, the Buckeye Fly effects. One I’ve been thinking about is what if Justin Fields can’t come back into the Sugar Bowl and so CJ has to play the rest of that game. And it’s just, it’s just like a tone setter because now CJ is going to be the guy. Another one, this is kind of a softer one. What if Kyle McCord does come into that Akron game and light it up in a way that it actually starts a conversation about whether he should take CJ’s job or not. But those are just, that’s down the road here. We’re trying to wrap this part right now. Number two.

He was second in first place votes. He had 10. Andrew, you had him at number four. Nathan, you had him at number six. I had him at number 12. So I was lower than everybody. The textures had this guy at number two as well. So I’m lower and I’m glad I’m lower because then I can ask this question about this guy. First of all, Will Howard’s overall score 13 .65. Ryan Day score 13 .85. He’s number two. Nathan, he’s not the play caller anymore.

He has a real quarterbacks coach. You know, he’s got like a real guy running that room. He’s. Full CEO mode now. And that matters, right, that matters, especially off the field, the amount of stuff he has to deal with on a day to day basis. I don’t want to devalue that, but so much of winning a national championship is what’s going to happen on Saturdays and then on Mondays for the national championship game. You guys had him higher than me, and so the thing I’m wondering is.

What’s his value in 2024 where he is in a very different spot as a coach, whether head coach or assistant coach, than he has been in a very long time.

Nathan Baird (39:53.418)

Well, some of the hay is already in the barn on his value. The value was stepping away as play caller. The value was hiring Chip Kelly. The value was putting some of those things in effect to build the structure that exists for 2024. There’s his value. You know, you guys, yesterday’s episode jokingly mentioned the, the NIL bag man. It’s kind of him. He’s not the one who’s actually going around handing out bags of money, but his presence and the way that he sort of drives the

that apparatus and is very heavily involved in that and helping put together the structure that Ohio State has now that brought in those guys in December and in January and who knows who else it might bring in before the season starts and beyond that. All that is critical. And I think just because we might be talking about his 2024 contributions a little bit in earnest right now.

because he’s already done them, that doesn’t make them any less substantial for whether this team wins a championship in 2024 or not. I almost think that if you’re putting him this low on the list, it means that this is, you have something very far from championship or bust expectations for this team, or at least how it relates to his future with this program.

Stephen Means (41:20.364)

Andrew, same question to you before, and then I’ll go.

I mean, I admit for, because I think Nathan’s right that the hay is already kind of in the barn for some of the benefits of, uh, of what you’re going to see from Ryan Day that is involved in getting on, on the recruiting trail more. I mean, players love having the head coach come talk to them. It makes recruits feel valued. It makes recruits feel wanted. And that’s a big deal. Um, it’s delegating in meetings where it’s just, Hey, you got it.

Like he was, I mean, that was already kind of the motto with defensive stuff, but it was, hey, you got it. But now you’re going to be able to do that with the offensive side of the ball. I think some of the work that he would be doing is definitely going to be more impacted maybe later on down the line, you know, being that CEO type of coach. I think that maybe that shows up in 2025 and beyond. But for this year,

as it relates to winning a national championship, it’s, I thought about the Michigan game and that sequence at the end of the first half when they kicked that field goal, when they settled for that field goal late. Like we talked about that at Nausium. He talked about that a lot. That is just a situation where it might be more beneficial if you have a play caller who’s got a play ready to go for, I forget what the yardage was.

for that, whether it was like fourth and three or fourth and whatever, but you have a play caller who’s ready to go for fourth and five, you know, fourth and three or fourth and inches. He’s got three play calls ready to go and he’s ready to send the field goal team out. And Ryan Day is able to think, okay, if we get this, we’re kicking it. If we get this, we’re going for it. If we get this, we’re hurrying to the line and we are, you know, we’re telling them, you know, I’m telling Chip, Hey,

Andrew (43:18.606)

Let’s hurry to the line here. Let’s do this. Let’s try to get a playoff really quick. Let’s try to go score a touchdown. If we get this, we’re going to play for the field goal. The game time, game management decisions, I think, are going to be probably the biggest thing. And that’s why I had him up here, because I don’t think Ryan Day’s impact when they play Akron is going to be that large. I don’t think Ryan Day’s impact when they play Michigan State is going to be that large. Or I’m trying to think of who else is on that schedule.

Indiana’s later in the year. I don’t know how much of an impact Ryan Day in terms of like a game management role is going to have on that. But when you start playing Oregon and when you go to Happy Valley, like you might play both of those games at maybe not nighttime because it’ll be West Coast, but evening. You might play a night game in Happy Valley. You might play an evening game in in in Eugene playing a Big 10 championship game.

playing a playoff game, those are gonna be talent -equated games that people talk about a lot, or relatively talent -equated games, and you need somebody leading the charge for that. You need somebody kinda setting the course for how the game is gonna be played and how you wanna call it and how you wanna act like it, and Ryan Day not having to call plays, I think, is a benefit for that. So I think the general, you know, kinda floor manager of everything, I think, is a big deal, but I do think that there are some things that you won’t see for another year.

Stephen Means (44:46.11)

Okay, I don’t disagree with those moments. I think I put him solo as a compliment to what you were talking about, Nathan. He’s already kind of done what his biggest role is now that he’s in this place as a head coach. And that’s build up the building. And now you hired a bunch of workers to go work in the building.

and they need to do the jobs you hired them to do, whether it’s at quarterback, whether it’s your offensive coordinator, defensive coordinators, position coaches, offensive line, everybody I put ahead of him are people it’s like, I brought you here to do this. Now do you do make me right for bringing you here to do this. I and his role now. When he was talking about giving it up, giving up play call, and I thought it was just an interesting conversation he was having and talking about, especially that moment against Michigan.

what you’re bringing up Andrew, where it’s like when you’re in that, when you’re calling plays, you’re in your play sheet. You’re so deep into it, you don’t always have time during a game to think about big picture. And he’s all big picture now.

He’s not the small day to day stuff. That’s where, you know, the middle managers come in. That’s what the players come in. That’s their job now. So what does that look like on game day? You’re right, Andrew. It does look like in these key moments, since you’re not head deep in your play sheet, having a better feel. It’s.

you know, attacking the transfer portal the way they did, attacking a recruiting class the way they did, attacking a coaching staff multiple times the way he did, because he kept making hires and then having hires leave and then having guys who had been here for a decade leave and having to make, if he was still calling plays, this would have been much more of a headache than it already probably was for him. But because it’s so big picture and I focused more day to day small picture, what’s happening in the middle of the game.

Stephen Means (46:37.036)

I think I pushed him down on my list, but I did it as a salute to Ryan Day. You did your job. You put the you put the pieces together. Now the pieces need to work the way that you design them to work. He’s not going to get full. Reap what you sow until next January, while everybody else on this list is going to get it every Saturday. And I think that’s why I pushed him so low. If that makes sense, Nathan.

Oh, and he doesn’t have to wait to January. They played Michigan before January. They go to Oregon before January. Like those are still going to be like the the the expectations are so insanely high for this team right now. And he helped devise that. But now it’s also something that this team is is living up to every weekend. Like, you know, they already talk about that, that if it’s not enough to win, you’ve got to win the way that we have to. You have to outscore the expectations and it’s.

So that’s it. Yeah, that’s it.

Stephen Means (47:19.244)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (47:35.34)

Yeah.

partially because of conversations like the ones we have that’s gonna become even more true in this coming season. So we just, I think the head coach always has to be relatively high. If you’re talking about being a national championship caliber team, like something’s gonna come up. We don’t know yet what that is, that he’s gonna have to be out in front and deal with. And I also, again, like we didn’t really put a timeframe on this if just because he’s already done some of these things. I guess if, if,

If you have other coaches and transfers and things like that high on your list, I think he also has to go high on the list because he’s the guy who made that happen.

Fair, that’s a fair point. Okay, so that’s two through five. Ryan Day, Will Howard, Caleb Downs, and then Jim Knowles. Where’s one person left that we have yet to talk about. He was unanimously number one for everybody. He didn’t get every first place vote, but he was unanimously number one amongst the Texers, amongst all three of us as well. And I will reveal who that person is when we come back from the break here on Buckeye Talk.

Stephen Means (00:04.445)

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Nathan Baird, Andrew Gillis, and we have been ranking the 10 most valuable people to the Ohio State football program and its pursuit of a national title in the 2024 season. We went through the first nine people. If you’re watching this on YouTube, you got to go listen, go get the full pod wherever you find podcasts to get that full list of people. But

This is our number one guy and it was number one for everybody. I had him number one. The Texers had him number one. Nathan and Andrew both had him number one. He had 15 first place votes overall plus us three. We counted as first place votes as well. But overall score 21 .8. Eight point difference almost Nathan between him and everybody else on the list. And it makes perfect sense. Nathan, you had this guy number one. Chip Kelly, number one.

Why did you put him at number one and was he emphatically the number one guy on the list for you like this?

The way that the question was phrased was who is the most valuable? Who are the most valuable people for how state to win a national championship in 2024? Ohio State had a national championship defense in 2023 did not have a national championship offense in 2023 He’s the offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach He’s the guy who is going to be instrumental in helping lift this offense beyond what it could do last year And by the way that offense last year doesn’t have Marvin Harrison jr. I

and we don’t know how good the quarterback play will be this year, regardless of what Chip Kelly’s influence is going to be. And I think that both by taking this off of Ryan Day’s play, anybody Ryan Day had hired to be the offensive coordinator would have taken those duties off of his plate and allowed him to focus on other things. So that alone isn’t really on Chip Kelly. That was why I had Ryan Day ranked as high as I did. He already made that decision. It’s not a thing Chip Kelly is doing to just be calling plays, but to be calling plays as Chip Kelly,

Nathan Baird (01:53.815)

is what makes him as valuable as he is because he is someone with a long history of being innovative and being creative and being assertive and being able to attack defenses in new ways and to look at a roster and come up with maybe things that would very likely be outside of Ryan Day’s comfort zone in how you attack a team. We’ve talked a lot on this list over two episodes of this podcast about

receivers and quarterbacks and offensive line. We didn’t mention any running backs and it’s very likely that that’s going to be the strength of this team this year is being able to just go out and run the ball down people’s throats almost at will depending on how this offensive line comes around. And that’s Chip Kelly’s brand of football. Not that they won’t do dynamic things with quarterbacks and this passing him too and they have to because that’s where a lot of their talent is. But what him coming into this program at this specific moment with.

Trevin Henderson and Quinchon Judkins and mobile quarterbacks, it’s going to look different, I think, than what it would if Ryan Day was still calling the plays for this offense. I think that this team’s chances of winning a national championship are better with Chip Kelly calling plays than with Ryan Day calling plays, both because I think this is more Chip Kelly’s wheelhouse and because of what it means for Ryan Day getting to be the CEO that he needs to be in all of the ways for this program.

So that’s why Nathan had him number one, and GYU have him at number one.

Well, I mean, he touches everything that I think needs to be an improvement from last year’s team. I think they need better quarterback play. Who’s the quarterback’s coach? Who’s going to be the guy that’s leading the charge for whatever the offense the quarterback is going to be running, right? I mean, there are going to be certain plays and packages that Will Howard likes that maybe Devin Brown doesn’t or Will Howard’s better at that Devin Brown doesn’t or vice versa. Where if Devin Brown’s the guy, you know, there’s going to be certain things that you have to play that Devin Brown is better at. And that’s just the way football works. And...

Andrew (03:56.142)

That’s gonna be Chip Kelly’s responsibility. We’ve talked about the offensive line. Well, what if the offensive line doesn’t take that step forward that we’re all anticipating? What if there are still some issues or maybe some injuries or whatever? Whatever has to happen with that offensive line. And now you’ve got these two great running backs that you have to figure out how to get the ball to and how to run the ball effectively. Well, Chip Kelly, I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, Chip Kelly can scheme up a run game.

And Chip Kelly can do some things in the run game that are pretty unique. That’s his responsibility. And that’s his responsibility to, if the offensive line is good, to scheme a running game around that. If the offensive line is not good, if the offensive line is still kind of an issue against some of these bigger teams, you gotta find a way to scheme around that as well. Gotta find a way to get these receivers involved. How do you get the receivers involved while maximizing the run game? How do you get, like, there are just so many different on Saturday things.

where I think you just map out and you’re like, man, Chip Kelly, Chip Kelly has a big job this year. And I just, the level of value and the level of importance he has to this team, both in instruction and, you know, in kind of coaching and, and things like that, but in schematics and then how it looks on Saturday, Chip Kelly to me, it was, all right, when I make this list, it’s Chip Kelly. And then who am I going to put two through whatever. So.

Yeah, Chip Kelly was pretty clearly number one.

So here’s how I made him number one. Back in 2016, Ohio State’s offense was horrid and it had a really good defense. Its quarterback play was shaky at times at best. And its offense had one real consistent weapon named Curtis Samuel and it ran through him. And it worked and then they got up against Clemson and they got shut out and failed to score a single touchdown in that game. And after that game, Urban Meyer went out and got Ryan Dan, Kevin Wilson and said, fix it.

Stephen Means (05:52.925)

And then 2017 happened, 2018 happened, 2019 happened, 2020 happened, 2021 happened, and 2022 happened. For almost, for six straight years, the offense became the pride and joy of Ohio State quarterback play. They had years where the run game was awesome with J .K. Dobbins, Heisman Trophy quarterback, everything under the sun. And then in 2023, 2016 kind of replayed itself a little bit, right?

quarterback play was shaky at best, awesome defense. Offense was kind of horrid at times. Some of that was injuries, right? Shave and Henderson missing some time there, but one consistent weapon. His name was Marvin Harrison Jr. He was pretty awesome. Shaky quarterback play. And then they ended the season failing the score, touchdown in a bowl game. And then Ryan Day went out and got his former, well, first he went out and got Bill O ‘Brien and then Bill O ‘Brien got hired to be a head coach. So he had to go back out on the road and he found his mentor and he said, come fix it. So here we are again.

A year after the offense was the problem child for the first time in quite a long time, the head coach made a very significant decision about his career. As Ryan Day’s intern his six years as a head coach, he just made a very significant decision by giving up the controller to another person. Now a person he trusts maybe more than anybody else on the planet when it comes to football, but he gave up the controller and he told him to fix it. He went out and got a transfer quarterback and told him to fix it.

So yeah, Chip Kelly is, I think, the most valuable thing because he’s being tasked with fixing the thing that was a problem a year ago so that it’s not a problem this year. And maybe it’s part of the weapon along with this defense and giving Ohio State maybe its most complete team since 2019, which was the last time where it was so complete.

where you go, why didn’t that team win a national title? Oh, because there was a super team in Louisiana and another team with a number one pick at quarterback in Clemson, right? That’s what stopped Ohio State. Two other decade great teams stopped Ohio State. We don’t know if there’s a Joe Burrow LSU team out there right now. We don’t know if there’s a Trevor Lawrence Clemson team out there. Maybe George is that.

Stephen Means (07:54.845)

But Carson Beck ain’t no Joe Burrow. Maybe Oregon has those pieces around them. And Dylan Gabriel ain’t no Trevor Lawrence, but Ohio State might have a 2019 team again. And it’s because Ryan Day went out and found his mentor and said, fix my offense. This used to be the great thing about Ohio State. And there was a problem last year. So he’s tasked with fixing that. That means getting the quarterback play back to where it’s supposed to be. That makes that means having more than just one guy be a weapon, even if that just means guys being healthy. But Chip Kelly.

has had some really good offenses in his career. He’s never had quite the level of weapons he’s had here at Ohio State, and he’s being tasked with maximizing it. Because if he doesn’t...

That could be the thing that once again holds Ohio State back from being a national champion. So that’s why I had him number one. That’s why Nathan had him number one. That’s why Andrew had him number one. And I’m pretty sure some combination of all three of those answers are why our Texas had him as the overwhelming favorite number one. Like I said, by my formula, 21 .8 was his score. That’s eight points higher than literally everybody else we’ve talked about.

on this podcast. Get the text 614 -350 -3315 if you want to hear your voices heard, if you want news analysis, anything else, two week free trial, $3 .99 after that. That’ll wrap up this Tuesday pod. For those of you who are watching this small segment on YouTube, go find this full pod. It’s anywhere you find podcasts. I promise, this was a fun episode. I thought it was interesting to just kind of pick the brains of our texters and pick the brains of Nathan, myself, and Andrew as well. That’ll wrap up this Tuesday pod though for Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis. I’m Stephen.

means and that was Buckeye Talk.

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